Devil's Advocate: Associations

[Nefastus]

why would anybody limit themselves so pointlessly? i do see a guild wouldnt want to employ a blacksmith agency made up of members of its enemies, but the association system essentially creates kind of a free market capitalism program of skills and labour division. why make a little guild fort, when a guild could be just another noble house within a mega city that no one one guild built, but is open to all?

You and some of the rest really take EoC way too far. You believe it will magically break how MMOs work, or more precisely, how players play MMOs. The reality is, it's just a game, and people play games mainly with their friends, or people who mostly share their character, and in-game goals.

Besides, you completely misunderstand the system, or dream too much, association will be made of people working together and PLAYING together, which is essentially a guild. Even if one doesn't call it a guild, but association, if my Guild employs ASSOCIATION of BLACKSMITHS, it will basically be a business alliance between two guilds.

I'm sorry to say, and I will here say it, I called it, but some of you will face a sad and harsh reality when game is released. I've been there few times, and I've learned the lesson. You will too, hopefully.

[Sergei Meranov]

Are you saying that you are expecting some artificial "perks" and "abilities" for joining some specific crafts associations. If yes, then you are certainly expecting to have no sand in the box, and have forced on prerequisites for advancement in the game. If that's the case, expect me and massive amount of people to not even touch this game.

As for Wessex, Forsaken, GuildExampleA, or whatever, having relations with other guilds and associations, that's what I precisely explained above using traditional alliance and business deal system. Guild A might be more focused on sailing waters, so it will probably align itself with Guild B which is focused on trade, etc etc. Larger guilds will probably have in-guild divisions working on specific jobs (associations). Either way, you won't break traditional guild and alliance system.

What I'm saying is that what you're going to have is a more interconnected populace. While I don't anticipate WoWesque perks and abilities to come with associations, you will certainly have perks of being connected with them. For example, if we assume that each religion is a type of association, then in all likelihood each traditional guild will not have their own. Why bother if you can just find one already made and get the same benefits?

I think the way it will "break" traditional guild system and structures is that there doesn't seem to be any planned association that will be able to oversee all the different divisions that you think traditional guilds will have. It'd have to be managed completely out of game. Even if they did that, does that mean that they'll only associate with one another? If not you're already breaking the traditional notions of the guild system.

Though, with you defining the "traditional" system as "any type of association between entitites" I suppose you're right, it would be impossible to break that system.

[Borborygmus]

Besides, you completely misunderstand the system, or dream too much, association will be made of people working together and PLAYING together, which is essentially a guild. Even if one doesn't call it a guild, but association, if my Guild employs ASSOCIATION of BLACKSMITHS, it will basically be a business alliance between two guilds.

wrongo bingo bongo.

each member of your guild could be in 10 + different associations with no overlap among members. you need to think outside the box on this one, i think.

[Nefastus]

wrongo bingo bongo.

each member of your guild could be in 10 + different associations with no overlap among members. you need to think outside the box on this one, i think.

Seriously? Have you ever been a member of well established guild, or rather been playing MMO with a group of friends? Here we go again, you continue to "dream" spew your ideas of what EoC will be. Again, and slowly, people will play with their friends, as this is not real life, and you won't have true real life work relations. Loyalty and dedication will be with guilds. I know, it's hard for you to understand.

[Jacabon Mere]

The most valuable commodity in a game like this is trust. Being able to join a multitude of associations makes it harder for guilds to "police" members. And that comment will probably be a red rag to a bull, but in a game where trust is the most valuable commodity, you are not going to want someone hanging around you that you can't trust 99%. This is where I see non conventional associations falling apart.

[Serpensio]

Are you saying that you are expecting some artificial "perks" and "abilities" for joining some specific crafts associations. If yes, then you are certainly expecting to have no sand in the box, and have forced on prerequisites for advancement in the game. If that's the case, expect me and massive amount of people to not even touch this game.

Why must these "perks" be artificial? I see no reason why not to provide logical benefits for joining particular associations. Why would doing this take sand out of the box?

As for Wessex, Forsaken, GuildExampleA, or whatever, having relations with other guilds and associations, that's what I precisely explained above using traditional alliance and business deal system. Guild A might be more focused on sailing waters, so it will probably align itself with Guild B which is focused on trade, etc etc. Larger guilds will probably have in-guild divisions working on specific jobs (associations). Either way, you won't break traditional guild and alliance system.

If the traditional guild and alliance system is not broken; such system being defined as a single "guild" entity that provides everything for it's members in an exclusive and closed environment, with singular but wide-sweeping goals based mostly on the competitive metagame; then the system is not performing as intended.

why would anybody limit themselves so pointlessly? i do see a guild wouldnt want to employ a blacksmith agency made up of members of its enemies, but the association system essentially creates kind of a free market capitalism program of skills and labour division. why make a little guild fort, when a guild could be just another noble house within a mega city that no one one guild built, but is open to all?

This.

Sergei's also got the right idea.

Seriously? Have you ever been a member of well established guild, or rather been playing MMO with a group of friends? Here we go again, you continue to "dream" spew your ideas of what EoC will be. Again, and slowly, people will play with their friends, as this is not real life, and you won't have true real life work relations. Loyalty and dedication will be with guilds. I know, it's hard for you to understand.

Of course people will play with their friends! No one is disputing that! The point however, is that each player will have several circles of friends, which are generally exclusive of each other, and Not simply subdivisions of the same all-encompassing traditional guild.
For instance: a player, skilled as a Carpenter will be associated with a Carpenter's guild, but may make friends with a ship's captain. Having a useful skill for a ship at sea, the Captain will invite/hire the carpenter to be the official Ship's Carpenter, and the player will accept. He now has ties to two different associations, the Carpenter's Guild, and the Ship's Crew. The carpenter also happens to have a "family" waiting for him back home, and worships a local God, this puts him at 4 total very different associations. Tack on a prestigious Gentleman's Association, and the local Brawling Club, and that makes 6 separate associations. Not forgetting the Citizenship of your birth Faction, for a total of 7.

This could keep on going, have you read Dave's Dev Blog on guilds? The point of the system is to allow players to build up many separate social circles as possible, forcibly tying up their allegiances to several places instead of a single solitary, all-encompassing guild. Ideally, this makes the associations beholden to the players, instead of the other way around like it's always been in MMOs in the past.


The question is, is this enough to break up the monopoly traditional guilds have had on players since their creation? Or is there more required to ensure the players associate with several separate associations instead of sticking with the traditional system?

[Jacabon Mere]

Why must these "perks" be artificial? I see no reason why not to provide logical benefits for joining particular associations. Why would doing this take sand out of the box?


If the traditional guild and alliance system is not broken; such system being defined as a single "guild" entity that provides everything for it's members in an exclusive and closed environment, with singular but wide-sweeping goals based mostly on the competitive metagame; then the system is not performing as intended.


This.

Sergei's also got the right idea.


Of course people will play with their friends! No one is disputing that! The point however, is that each player will have several circles of friends, which are generally exclusive of each other, and Not simply subdivisions of the same all-encompassing traditional guild.
For instance: a player, skilled as a Carpenter will be associated with a Carpenter's guild, but may make friends with a ship's captain. Having a useful skill for a ship at sea, the Captain will invite/hire the carpenter to be the official Ship's Carpenter, and the player will accept. He now has ties to two different associations, the Carpenter's Guild, and the Ship's Crew. The carpenter also happens to have a "family" waiting for him back home, and worships a local God, this puts him at 4 total very different associations. Tack on a prestigious Gentleman's Association, and the local Brawling Club, and that makes 6 separate associations. Not forgetting the Citizenship of your birth Faction, for a total of 7.

This could keep on going, have you read Dave's Dev Blog on guilds? The point of the system is to allow players to build up many separate social circles as possible, forcibly tying up their allegiances to several places instead of a single solitary, all-encompassing guild. Ideally, this makes the associations beholden to the players, instead of the other way around like it's always been in MMOs in the past.


The question is, is this enough to break up the monopoly traditional guilds have had on players since their creation? Or is there more required to ensure the players associate with several separate associations instead of sticking with the traditional system?

In a game with full loot pvp and where death sucks, you seem overly optimistic with how easily associations will form.

[Borborygmus]

well, some will expand, and some with only work with proven allies. the option is there for each player to decide.

[Serpensio]

In a game with full loot pvp and where death sucks, you seem overly optimistic with how easily associations will form.

Well, whether I'm optimistic or not, that's the point of this thread, to determine as best we can the problems that might arise, and how to solve them.

[Nefastus]

Of course people will play with their friends! No one is disputing that! The point however, is that each player will have several circles of friends, which are generally exclusive of each other, and Not simply subdivisions of the same all-encompassing traditional guild.
For instance: a player, skilled as a Carpenter will be associated with a Carpenter's guild, but may make friends with a ship's captain. Having a useful skill for a ship at sea, the Captain will invite/hire the carpenter to be the official Ship's Carpenter, and the player will accept. He now has ties to two different associations, the Carpenter's Guild, and the Ship's Crew. The carpenter also happens to have a "family" waiting for him back home, and worships a local God, this puts him at 4 total very different associations. Tack on a prestigious Gentleman's Association, and the local Brawling Club, and that makes 6 separate associations. Not forgetting the Citizenship of your birth Faction, for a total of 7.

This could keep on going, have you read Dave's Dev Blog on guilds? The point of the system is to allow players to build up many separate social circles as possible, forcibly tying up their allegiances to several places instead of a single solitary, all-encompassing guild. Ideally, this makes the associations beholden to the players, instead of the other way around like it's always been in MMOs in the past.


The question is, is this enough to break up the monopoly traditional guilds have had on players since their creation? Or is there more required to ensure the players associate with several separate associations instead of sticking with the traditional system?

And here you keep on going with your dream like, fanatasy book like, idealistic view on what you would like EoC to be. The reality is that.... it's just a game, MMO, not real life where you have "family" back home, and a mistress that you fuck in another city.

As I keep explaining to you, it will work as traditional guilds. Players with play with their friends from GuildA, who have a home at www.GuildAGaming.com and are allied for business or pvp purposes with GuildB. They form AllianceA, or simply occasionally trade or uses services of GuildB. That's how it will work. Even small groups of few players, which may all be crafting, will essentially form a guild.

Now, where EoC will be different, at least if developers design it right, will be in terms of city/holding forming. Instead of GuildA being able to Build and "Own" the city through hardcoded management feature, it will actually take work for various "Guilds" and "Individuals" to form a city, through natural means. In essence, city will be a group of structures owned by different players, and those players will be joint together in associations. Citizens of given formed city will have to come to natural agreement on city's hierarchy. In most basic form, guild, association or individual who has most influence on city's economy and political scene, either through wealth, number of followers, or most real estate, will be the ruling entity.

Besides that, stop dreaming, this isn't fantasy book or movie.