survival elements

[Rathius]

And when, pray tell, has anyone asked for that?

As for a compelling argument against it I'll give you the same one we use for people who want horrendus death penalties. I understand why you want it for yourself but why do you want to force it on me?

Because part of game design philosophy also accounts for dissuading certain populations from your game, if not directly. One major thing is to keep your target audience in mind, and develop towards that. Catering to everyone is one sure way of failing, because you cannot, ever, please everyone. So in this case, if people do not want to deal with the 'little inconveniences', then they just might not be part of the target audience. It really is nothing personal, it's just a way of keeping the game focused and getting the most of your target audience to stick around while chasing off others that may pollute the vision or whittle down at your audience.

[zymurgeist]

So you want it so people won't play the game. That makes no sense. The game as laid out so far looks very inclusive. Possibly too much so.

[Borborygmus]

So you want it so people won't play the game. That makes no sense. The game as laid out so far looks very inclusive. Possibly too much so.

you only feel this way because you can only envision a game with nothing but guild v guild pvp, and for the sake of GvG pvp.

there are many players now, due to the mainstreaming of mmo's who want to work together. its not just a competative sport any more. it can be about cooporation, generousity, ambition, enduring challenge.

this genre can support more than just the thrill of the kill. you should try it, and not just as a mini game between slaughtering builders.

the irony of my opinion, in terms of playing a game with a full and rich spectrum of crowd pleasing option, is that i think OCC would be ideal to be the leaders and inner sanctum enforcers of such a guild of guilds. you guys ruled shadowbane and saved civilization, as much i as i hated you for it at the time.

can you guys have an internal meeting or somthing? this is the game you should evolve for. trust me, youll have a blast being the good guys.

i dont want to fight with you, old forumbaners die hard...

[Rathius]

Now now, no twisting words. I was merely stating that's how it can go down. Just because someone sees it as an inconvenience, doesn't mean it really is to the target audience. Just like some people don't like resting, or any sort of downtime. Going back on a corpse run is an inconvenience. Gaining xp towards skills, stats, and abilities is an inconvenience. Having to travel from one side of the world to the other, without instant travel is an inconvenience. Where is the line drawn? What is left when you get rid of -everyone's- inconveniences. A game that's pretty much instant gratification... an automatic rpg, aka ProgressQuest... a game that plays itself. (http://progressquest.com/)

I'm not trying to dictate what the developers have in mind, but I'm sure they have a target audience in mind and mechanics in mind that are developed for that audience. Just like they keep saying they want to make it hard to do certain things, or encourage others. It's because of this audience, that they have it. If they really want these 'inconvenience' that means they're probably not meant for those that deem em as such.... Do not, ever, build a game for Everyone. It. Will. Fail.

[Dubanka]

you only feel this way because you can only envision a game with nothing but guild v guild pvp, and for the sake of GvG pvp.

there are many players now, due to the mainstreaming of mmo's who want to work together. its not just a competitive sport any more. it can be about cooperation, generousity, ambition, enduring challenge.

this genre can support more than just the thrill of the kill. you should try it, and not just as a mini game between slaughtering builders.

the irony of my opinion, in terms of playing a game with a full and rich spectrum of crowd pleasing option, is that i think OCC would be ideal to be the leaders and inner sanctum enforcers of such a guild of guilds. you guys ruled shadowbane and saved civilization, as much i as i hated you for it at the time.

can you guys have an internal meeting or something? this is the game you should evolve for. trust me, youll have a blast being the good guys.

i dont want to fight with you, old forumbaners die hard...

YOu mistake os's position.

We can play just about any roll required...good guy, bad guy...server devil, server police, etc.

Going back to the original point...eating and drinking are tedious. It doesn't add anything to the game. It just adds another 'prep'...another box to check before you walk out into the world:
10 pieces of 'best' food: Check
3 Flagons of nectar d' ambrosia: check
4 pieces of wonder bread (poison cure): check.
etc. etc.
Once you've done it a couple times it becomes pointless.
PLease name a game when eating and drinking were 'fun'.
I have no problem with it being in the game: 'mmm you eat the roast beef...HOT DAMN THAT WAS GOOD' for rp/humor value. but beyond that, what does it really add.

Do i really need to build a campfire to rest? for the xsyon players...was building a fire 'fun'? maybe for the first few times...but in the end...oh wait, fires had to be nerfed as they were being built everywhere and the polygon count killed the hamsters running the server but yeah. definitely lost their novelty. Novelty value: HIGH! Do i want to have to build a fire 3 or 4 times every time i go out? not particularly.

I am all for clothing, encumbrance, weather features...things that impact play, that make players make choices. Do i bundle up because its snowing, and increase my encumbrance but not run the risk of getting hypothermia of frostbite (stat redux) or do i go out lean and mean hoping to take someone else's warm stuff before i start suffering temp related penalties....or conversely, do i wear my max protection heavy plate on a hot summer day and run the risk of heat exhaustion or do i lighten up and wear some loose cloth and studded leather to ensure I remain strong and agile in the heat?

Choices that matter: GOOD. OUtstanding even.
Choices that add grind and tedium: No problem with them, just dont make them a mandatory add to play.

there are many players now, due to the mainstreaming of mmo's who want to work together. its not just a competitive sport any more. it can be about cooperation, generosity, ambition, enduring challenge.

and there are many thousand players in long term pvp guilds who have been working together, cooperating, being generous to their friend and allies, forging through games with much ambition and seeking those that offer the most challenge...and doing it for well over a decade.

The WoW generations is growing up and wants something more besides a pointless gear grind. 'grats. It's about damned time. But a sandbox is naturally competitive. You remove the constraints and throw players in...human nature takes over. And this gets to the point that Os was trying to make.

The wolves will use every single tool available, in manners not necessarily predicted by the devs, to maximize their competitive advantage. That is what we do. This is why it is extremely important for the devs to only implement features that matter. Features that have impact, directly, on gameplay. The more tertiary features that show up, the more chance there is they will be twisted to a level of grief not previously imagined.

Like Food.
How is it affected? can it be poisoned? burnt? stolen?
can i throw a fire ball at you, incinerate your food supply, then run away and laugh. Wait for you to start starving and move in for the easy kill? Do i (old mud grief) poison a couple bags of bread leave them someplace so some haplless noob picks it up (woo hoo free food) eats it, poisons self and dies (this will happen more than once, oobs being noobs). Do I stalk you, wait for you to get a long ways from town, wait for your handy dandy rest beacon to pop, move in and steal all your food then have my buddies ambush you on the way back?

Do the mechanics of food and hunger really add anything to the game? That is one for the devs to answer? Are we building alliances and kingdoms or are we playing sim grocery?

[Borborygmus]

yes, i think eating and drinking in a mmo could be set up to be fun.

i think it could enhance campaigns of all different sorts to have to have a supply train, just like in real warfare/exploration.

i like a game that forces players to build along the way, even if they are adventurers. i think it would be a fun dynamic to have an adventuring party that included a fighter, a rogue, a mage of some kind, a cook, a gatherer and a crafter to build structures etc etc. i think it would be more fun for groups to need eachother, and not just solo their way across a battlefield. i think a dedicated cook character could actually be fun, and could make a war party have more flavor (see what i did there?)

i think it would be fun to be a castle defender, leading a charge to kill all the siegers cooks, to kill their engineers. to starve an enemy out, or freeze them out.

i can keep explaining my "yes's" to all your "no's", but ultamately you either want a sim or you want a battlefield.

im sorry you are dedicated to being the wolves you warn of this time, even if you just want to build your own cave, that's all you will be able to make, if you make it just for yourselves.

more fun for us builders, to contend with a such a worthy adversary. i hope you change you minds as this game develops.

edit--people are so tired of the fabled holy trinity...its developing ideas like these that will break old crutches, and allow the genre to move forward.

[Rob Steele]

As a side note, not sure where the 70 mile crap came from, but that's not even large enough to be considered a decent island. Inaccurate statement. Continue discussion.

[NorCalGooey]

Something like drinking water isn't tedious...it takes like 10 seconds to do. I can drink a glass of water in 10 seconds anyway.

10 seconds every couple hours would not be so bad, so long as we could carry lots of water at once (of course, the more we carry the more weight it contributes. this adds more strategy to pvp)

[NorCalGooey]

As a side note, not sure where the 70 mile crap came from, but that's not even large enough to be considered a decent island. Inaccurate statement. Continue discussion.

This statement makes me hopeful. It makes me think continents will be up near 1000 sq miles, or even more. That's still only about 33 miles long and 33 miles wide. That's more like the size of a county. So it could be even more

[Slash Redhand]

Why would you want it the size of a country, isnt that overkill? :P