Bread and circuses.

[master]

understand what you mean, but I think there are ways to balance that. What would be if there were player houses right next to NPC-houses and you're unable to tell the difference? What would be if a put a house on fire and the fire start spreading out? If it's done right you don't know what's player owned and NPC owned. In a city are banks where player store there stuff, player owned crafting buildings, player owned shops, maybe even something like a player owned arena. If a city get's attacked and the NPC-guards cant handle it and the other NPCs see that, they grab their stuff and run away which leads to a stop to the whole town economy. Farm animals die because they don't get food, maybe some NPCs steal some of your stuff when nobodys paying attention because everybodys trying to run. Merchants vanish and won't come back sgain because it isn't save there etc etc. In my eyes stuff like that is needed otherwise the world will feel empty like in MO as example.

I'm not saying cities should be empty. Just that everything is player owned. if there is buglary in game and you can't tell the difference where do the items npcs have come from. if they arnt from players it wrecks the economy, why have a crafter make this when you could steal it from an npc there are other problems. it just feels weird that if i was a thief, I wouldn;t know if i was robbing a player of screwing up the economy. and ikf they buy from player crafters it still feels weird, if I make a bowl I make it to satisfy the wants and needs of a real player, not a glorified calculator.

It doesnt mean a city could be empty. a player could build hostels to house npcs with rooms rented by the npcs employers, npcs could walk from the hostel to their job place, when not working they could walk around the city watching fights at the arena or whatever. they would still eat, sleep and ... . its just that their food and housing would be provided for by players.

Another needed part of that is NPCs that are walking around, fighting for the interests of their faction as it is in GW2, you can't tell there sometimes if somebody who just helped you fighting a group of monsters a NPC or a player.

I'd rather have players fight for the needs of their factions. But I guess that if monsters attack an npc city they could help defend. I'd rather see a war between valledonia and dalwyn be more about player associations taking territory from each other than npcs doing it.

that said npcs in player cities could still be a part of it. if someone from valledonoa asks a dalwyn npc in a player city while he's not working where the blacksmith is the npc may not respons due to the dislike between factions.

On the other side each NPC should be able to offer quests. The father of a family get's killed, when you speak now with his little son he gives you a quest to kill the murderers. Depending on how rich the family is, the reward is high or low.
If the father survives and only the house get's destroyed, he offers a quest to rebuild them. Or help to find somebody who can rebuild them. Or help them to get a family ring back that one of the criminals stole when they attacked so they have enough money to pay someone to come over from another near city to rebuild it. Etc etc. Got what I mean? The world shouldn't be ruled by a bunch of superhuman warriors. It should get influenced by everything that happens all around the world. The world should evolve. And isn't that what a sandbox game is about?

well I'd definately like to see a difference between player and npc cities. But whose to say an npc working for a player can't offer a quest. if a player in feudal society owns a few npc villages, and those villages are attacked by bandits they could ask other players for help. And I wouldn't mind seeing neutral npc villages as well.

also, to me a sandbox is about choice. If you are talking about a virtual world than I want a dynamic world. and for me a dynamic world is not about a glorified calculator deciding things. its about real emotions, even if its just a game a computer can't feel frustration or whatever. so i really Don't care that much about an npcs ring. since no player put effort into crafting it its just a piece of randomly spawned code that screws up the economy.

[Acaro]

I think especially at the beginning this won't really work. The wotld is going to be epic huge and at the beginning, especially people who play their first sandbox mmo, will mainly be around the starter citys, they won't have the money to build their own citys etc. Should the players who want to explore have to wait till the others spread out because theres just nobody in a range of 2h walking when they go somewhere? I can imagine a system like described by me above where the NPC gets slowly less and less important but with your system the world would just feel empty in the first half year+. If the world feels wrong, people will leave the game and than there's never a chance a system like described by you will have a chance to work. As I described it, everything will kinda player owned after a time, too, at that point where guilds are rich/powerful enough to take the lead from a city or build there own. And once it's theres they can command about the population in that city and give them specific tasks and so on, just like described by you.

[master]

I think especially at the beginning this won't really work. The wotld is going to be epic huge and at the beginning, especially people who play their first sandbox mmo, will mainly be around the starter citys, they won't have the money to build their own citys etc. Should the players who want to explore have to wait till the others spread out because theres just nobody in a range of 2h walking when they go somewhere? I can imagine a system like described by me above where the NPC gets slowly less and less important but with your system the world would just feel empty in the first half year+. If the world feels wrong, people will leave the game and than there's never a chance a system like described by you will have a chance to work. As I described it, everything will kinda player owned after a time, too, at that point where guilds are rich/powerful enough to take the lead from a city or build there own. And once it's theres they can command about the population in that city and give them specific tasks and so on, just like described by you.

the world has suffered a disaster. even if there are npc in the world I doubt that they'd be more than hovels. to be clear I don't expexct everything to be player owned. But the things that arnt shouldn't affect the economy in all but the tiniest ways [except quest rewards, that I can handle] so thieves targeting npcs wouldn't be able to steal much either becuase a. they, as I said before, would be poor living in hovels and the stuff the thieves steal would be more or less worthless or b. the stuff is in heavily guarded npc cities.

I guess players who capture territory with npc villages in could upgrade them as a way of conving new npcs to move into the area, and then players can go to these villages and hire them for a city. But what the players add would have to be made by players. if players built new houses and left the npcs the houses would last a while and then fall to ruins. How long could be a matter of arguement. and even if you built new houses in their villages their clothes would still be cheap homespun. of course it would be a bit more dynamic. can't think of a good way to explain it.

I also don't know why explorers need a huge city to sleep in at night. they're explorers. they have tents or whatever. maybe they can kill some goblins in exchange for sleeping in an npc hovel. I can understand if you mean tourists. But explorers should find new things. not look for things already found by npcs.

Also, I hope player expansion starts within five seconds of the game coming live. I actuallly wouldn't mind no wipes after beta to allow for the fact that there is some infrastructure in the world. but if it isnt explorers should be looking for places to set up associations immediately.

[Acaro]

Also, I hope player expansion starts within five seconds of the game coming live. I actuallly wouldn't mind no wipes after beta to allow for the fact that there is some infrastructure in the world. but if it isnt explorers should be looking for places to set up associations immediately.

I also hope so but I hope that the players aren't that mighty that they just need to come and build their castles within a hour. Or that NPCs just wait for them to be their leaders.
And something like the houses gets destroyed automatically after a time is really bad design in my eyes. I think that the NPCs should be that powerful thst they can do everything to a certain point: the guards can fight, but as the enemys realize they can't beat them at the moment they wait and gather a little army and than the NPCs are screwed. The crafters can craft things with medium quality thats way worse than something by a specialized player crafter. NPCs can build houses but they need very long compared to a player. But why shouldn't a explorer be able to find lost civilizations or a tribe that offer their kids to their evil kids? Player can move things while NPCs mainly think about their own needs. And, over time, NPCs get naturally less important.

Players dont want to do every job in a MMO because some are just boring, that's why there should be NPCs. But if a player decides to do that boring job, he should be better in it than the NPCs.

I don't everything what they do happen based on calculations either, but thats why EoC is going to have a dynamic event team

What be pretty interesting to hear what you devs think about that topic

[drakedude]

I was actually thinking about theatre's :L. However, I'm with Acaro here. Sure, players should be the preferred go to to get things done, but neither should NPC's be powerless. They're not cattle, they've managed to survive an apocvalypse, and every nation wants something. Have NPC's wait for players, and the world will seem empty, boring and above all un-dynamic. NPC's have their own lives, they should be able to house themselves, defend themselves, feed themselves. Sure, a sufficiently skilled player can do it better, but considering the line between Mob and NPC itself is practically non-existent, they should be something to worry about, they should be part of a successful nations plan's, and above all, just like people, they should surprise you.

And that's why we have the DET.

[mizzenmast]

So long as a partial NPC crew would be able to look after my ship while I'm offline, I'll be satisfied.

There are a lot of great ideas in this thread. Keep up the brainstorming.

[master]

I was actually thinking about theatre's :L. However, I'm with Acaro here. Sure, players should be the preferred go to to get things done, but neither should NPC's be powerless. They're not cattle, they've managed to survive an apocvalypse, and every nation wants something. Have NPC's wait for players, and the world will seem empty, boring and above all un-dynamic. NPC's have their own lives, they should be able to house themselves, defend themselves, feed themselves. Sure, a sufficiently skilled player can do it better, but considering the line between Mob and NPC itself is practically non-existent, they should be something to worry about, they should be part of a successful nations plan's, and above all, just like people, they should surprise you.

one of the things I'm worried about is players killing npcs and stealing their stuff. It could ruin things for crafters unless npcs lived in hovels.

[Strada]

one of the things I'm worried about is players killing npcs and stealing their stuff. It could ruin things for crafters unless npcs lived in hovels.

I hope players who kill NPC's suffer the same consequences when killing other players. Can't really see any reason why it wouldn't be like this.

[zymurgeist]

I hope players who kill NPC's suffer the same consequences when killing other players. Can't really see any reason why it wouldn't be like this.

If indeed we do get our own NPC servants I would hope they would tell you if one of them was killed and by who. It's one of the problems I have with NPC guards in many games. What good are they if they never tell you you're under attack?

[Eldrath]

Those ideas sound truly amazing, but hard to get into the game. Most singleplayergames fail hard at implementing "living" NPCs and a believable way to control them. Hopefully we will have enough players to support cities without an army of NPCs, and enough pirates to man ships without having to rely on NPC hirelings. There will be tough calls ahead, because the more players rely on NPCs the less they feel like playing a RPG but a RTS.