warfare

[Khaiyne]

That doesnt mean that you can't design tools with protecting players in mind, if players die every five minutes they'll leave the game. Unless you designs tools to balance that risk ther'll be no crafters, no crafters means no economy, no economy means the games broken.

Tools like npc patrols among other things.

I think we should be mindful that players are quite good at adapting. I think you're drawing on your experiences in a traditional PvE or PvP based game.

For example, I think MO and DF were 8k X 8k or something like that. That's not even big enough to be the first continent in EoC so you've immediately got a different playing field. We don't know the plans regarding territory control and defense yet and I'd like to see some discussion about what could work without thinking, "oh that can't be done".

I wonder what type of 'tools' you're referring to to balance the risk to crafters. What do you think could work without removing the open world style game play?

[master]

I wonder what type of 'tools' you're referring to to balance the risk to crafters. What do you think could work without removing the open world style game play?

Encouragement to territory owners to protect them using taxes.
limited npc guards controlled by players
the abililty to steal from crafters without killing them. A crafter could lose stuff but wouldnt have to run all the way back.
etc.
etc.

[bmfof]

@But terrain should be just as important as where you are in the terrain. If you are in the middle of a desert a bunch of wooly mamoths wouldnt last very long. Also tactics should be just as important. Even if you are outnumbered. A heavy cavely charge with charge damage and a decent combat system should allow you to kill a large number of infantry. until, of course, they decide to use pikes. Though I guess there could be other ways to limit those pike. Like sending a cavelry charge at the flanks or rear.

Of course thats mainly field combat. When it comes to sieges I can see tactics for defenders including moats, and a double wall where when enemies take one wall you pepper them with arrows. Though it should be possible to make the first wall shorter than the second.
nothing should be arbritrary.

Just to clear this up, positioning is dependant on tactics and terrain. Positioning is the effect and extension of these factors - you can't influence the terrain (unless you own and build on it, which happens before battle) and tactics rely on it, so the only thing you can really do as a player is position stuff. I didn't mention that because it seemed pretty self explenatory


I think you guys are giving this too much attention. You seem to want a system that favours defenders in such a way that it diminishes numbers. You forget that this would effectively render all even number sieges useless. I'd like to see an idea that doesn't do that.

Also, the idea of NPCs being spammed in a PvP environment is truly appalling.

[Dubanka]

Just to clear this up, positioning is dependant on tactics and terrain. Positioning is the effect and extension of these factors - you can't influence the terrain (unless you own and build on it, which happens before battle) and tactics rely on it, so the only thing you can really do as a player is position stuff. I didn't mention that because it seemed pretty self explenatory


I think you guys are giving this too much attention. You seem to want a system that favours defenders in such a way that it diminishes numbers. You forget that this would effectively render all even number sieges useless. I'd like to see an idea that doesn't do that.

Also, the idea of NPCs being spammed in a PvP environment is truly appalling.

yeah there is definitely a be careful what you wish for element...if you 'need' 5x people to win a siege...guess what you'll see at seiges...and that is bad imo.

[Yeti]

yeah there is definitely a be careful what you wish for element...if you 'need' 5x people to win a siege...guess what you'll see at seiges...and that is bad imo.

It has always been a problems even in themepark games where the overwhelming force will win, in war there are no equality. You will either be on the winning side or the loosing, its very seldom the war will end in a stalemate and in a digital world and especially in a sandbox with people fighting on different terms because of timezones and sizes of the guilds. Ninja Sieges will happen and as with everything its a balance issue if NPC Guards are to be allowed or not and if allowed how many and how well equipted should they be?

There could be numerous featueres to help the actual attack before it has happended by cripple the guards through poisioning the wells, assassinations of npc and guild officers and hiding people within the city walls and secretly arming them. It all depends on your cunning and support by the local underworld networks and perhaps even with the Banking association to support your finances.

[Dubanka]

there is always the problem of the zerg...where you number for safety or dominance, but typically the zerg is not dictated by actual gameplay requirements. Fear drives the zerg.

this is wholly different from game design that 'require' certain odds.

Players will always zerg. Politics can counter it to a degree, force to another, but it is, at least at some point inevitable.

The design element that forces you to zerg to successfully accomplish an element of that game...well thats bad design imo.

[Thradok]

Players will always zerg. Politics can counter it to a degree, force to another, but it is, at least at some point inevitable.

The design element that forces you to zerg to successfully accomplish an element of that game...well thats bad design imo.

Indeed. The way to counter it is to make it increasingly hard to support via increasingly complex logistics. At least then zergs can not simply pop up on a whim, but have to be well organized. And if people manage to pull it off, more power to 'em I say. Eventually they'll be seen as the evil zerg, and will fall, one way or another.

Edit: If they are abusing their power, anyway. And if they aren't, it hardly matters how big they are.

[Martin Brosseau]

...and if, by chance such statements are due to a FS member stating they are fact and I don't know about it... well lets just say I may have to borrow Lees whip.

He is not kidding

[Slash Redhand]

/me gently pats Martin

[JCatano]

I think we should be mindful that players are quite good at adapting. I think you're drawing on your experiences in a traditional PvE or PvP based game.

For example, I think MO and DF were 8k X 8k or something like that. That's not even big enough to be the first continent in EoC so you've immediately got a different playing field. We don't know the plans regarding territory control and defense yet and I'd like to see some discussion about what could work without thinking, "oh that can't be done".

I wonder what type of 'tools' you're referring to to balance the risk to crafters. What do you think could work without removing the open world style game play?

Darkfall is roughly 32x32 km.