How to Trade

[Stone Dog]

EDIT: WoT alert!! Da-amn I can get wordy.

I chose "Player controlled NPC/Shop" but I would have also selected "Player to Player" if I could have voted multiple times. I am NOT a fan of auction houses as they are currently presented in MMO's (Read: LOTRO as an example.)

Players should be able to trade face-to-face wherever they encounter each other. After all, most people (not everyone, though) play MMO's for the interaction with others and to leave out the option for player-to-player trading would take away from that interaction.

With regards to the NPC/Shop scenario I'd like to offer a little twist here. I believe I've mentioned elsewhere that players in Lineage could go into a shop mode that, after they logged out, left their characters in the game world to sell goods while they were offline. I'd like to see this used in EoC with a few upgrades.

1. I'd like to see players have the option to select their own characters or an NPC to be the vendor of their goods. In order to restrict the number of selling characters in the game, I would limit the player to either himself/herself OR the NPC but not be able to do both at the same time. An NPC could be in the game world at the same time as the player who "owned that individual" but any transactions made through the NPC should be taxed so the NPC's family could live (just an example, don't get on me about worrying about the NPC's family. )

2. Vendors should be able to be set up along streets or in a bazaar setting that towns/cities could build if they chose to do so. Vendors should not be forced into the bazaar if they don't wish to be there. This would add, I think, a little flavor to the settings with "street hawkers" set up along major thoroughfares.

3. Vendors should also be able to buy items as well as sell them. Players could set up both a selling screen, listing what they have to sell and at what pricing they would like to sell it at, as well as a buying screen where they could input the item(s) that they are looking for and at a buying price that they would pay to anyone selling into his vendor. It's my guess that the player would probably have to have a sample of the product that they want to purchase in order to be able to put it into the screen. If they didn't have a sample, then the selling "message boards" would be able to be used for purchasing items that individuals didn't have and therefore wouldn't be able to include it on their "wanting to buy" screen.

4. This is a bit of a dream scenario here but I figure what the heck, let's reach for the stars and see if we can't get to the moon. Any individual who goes to the buying/selling message boards would be able to click an "accept contract" button on the advertising there. This would allow the individual an opportunity to sell to the buyer. However, in selecting the "accept contract" option it does not take the contract away and prohibit others from trying to fill that contract as well. This would be done to try and prevent people from taking contracts that they had no intention of filling (either because they're looking for others to fill a contract they have for the same items or just as a method of griefing.) Accepting this contract would send a notification to the player if (s)he is online OR it would indicate to the person accepting the contract that the player had a vendor up in-game (assuming they put up a vendor) or was offline, providing either the player's name (if they used their own character as the vendor) or the NPC's name. It could also list the town the player's vendor is currently in to ensure people don't waste time scouring a large city should that individual have, for whatever reason, moved on. The moment the contract is filled then it could be removed from the message board and notifications could be sent out to any individuals who still had that contract saying they were too late.

5. Another "reach for the stars" scenario. I'd like to see vendors only selling their wares during the day time hours. I know this might be a huge coding issue and I really do expect to see Dave's "Pin of Reality" here but bear with me for a second. Using a system like this, any individual could set up a vendor at any time of the day or night. This would be done to ensure everyone could buy or sell offline and not have to wait for the night cycle to end and the day cycle to begin. If they set up a vendor at night that vendor would simply fade away after a few seconds and be put into stasis until the sun came up. Once the sun rises, vendors would then begin to materialize in the places that they were when their characters logged off and the selling could begin. Collision would need to be coded in here as well to prevent two players accidentally setting up shop on top of each other...perhaps a "This spot is reserved already, please move on to set up your shop" message could be utilized. Perhaps you could even have an overlay of available spots in a given area that would be visible only when an individual selected the "View available shop spots" option. I know we have to sometimes go for "game play" over "reality" but I don't remember street vendors ever being open during the night and I think this would add a twist to an MMO's trading system. Player-to-player trades could still be done at any time of the day or night.

6. For players who want to, they should be allowed to build their own shops that would have NPCs buying and selling goods out of them. Again, I would prefer to see a time frame where the shop is closed during a given time period that fits in with the profession of the shopkeeper. Blacksmiths would be open during daylight hours. Taverns could be open at all hours if the owner so wished. Bakeries would open during the pre-dawn hours and close a little earlier in the day perhaps but I think you folks should see what I'm getting at here. And remember, I'm in dreaming mode here so if you guys want to shoot down all of these ideas, fine by me.

7. My final suggestion would be to allow chat bubbles over the vendor's head shouting out a short message about what they're selling. It would need to be restricted in length so people couldn't recite the Gettysburg address. I think just a few words to describe their "big ticket" items would be cool. I'm not sure I would want to use an actual actor's or actress's voice here as that could get "overload the senses" so-to-speak but then again, maybe that would just add to the flavor and the immersion of the world if a text-to-voice option was available when in vendor mode. I wouldn't think you'd want too many voice options but certainly five for male sellers and five for female sellers could help to mix things up. I haven't forgotten about shop owners here either. I'd like to see any shop have the option of including a player-made sign that either spans the width of the building or hangs out over the street. Certainly there's the opportunity for some rather "creative language" to appear here but anything that was obviously offensive could be reported and a GM could always come along and change the offensive sign to something like "Fluffy Bunnies for Sale!" Perhaps a player could also put up a flyer to advertise their specials of the day in the window if they so desired, but that's probably really pushing it.

I think that about covers my thoughts on trading. I fully expect to see a few of these ideas shot down so by all means feel free to load up your rifles and have a go.

[Yoube]

I support all three, but with the caveat that the auction house is local.

One of the key elements to having a functioning economy is the requirement that consumers and producers/resellers know what they are doing for it to allocate resources efficiently and in extension, in a fair way. And one of the key elements of that is know what the good or service you are buying/selling is actually worth. A new player will have a very hard time knowing if the sword and armor he is being offered is actually worth, the one way he could learn is to ask a friend, if he has one that has more experience. Or going on a search in the forums, which will require new players to go out of game more than they already are doing (starting in a new MMORPG is for me a split between actual gameplay and reading up on the game on boards and walkthroughs). But this example of what we in economics call information assymetry, is not limited to new players. If a guild wants to buy a large amount to their stock-pile, should they be forced to run around to all different crafters to see who has the best offer, or just rely on the crafter they already know, all though there is a better crafter in the area they just havn't met?

It also works the other way around. For crafters that either move to a new city, or just are new to the trade, how do they know what they actually can sell their goods for? What if the only guy they can find on the streets is offering something far below actually market prices, just because he is looking to sell his goods to be able to buy new raw materials during the wrong ten minutes.

Real-time auctionhouses has the features that allow players to get a better sense of what a good actually is worth. Crafters will lower their prices until they can't, when they actually make a loss, so they have their break-even price. And buyers will bid up until they don't find the good worth the money any more, they meet in equilibrium. When all goods are sold and there is no dead-weight.

But I do still think there will be a market outside of auction houses, the difference will be that prices won't be hugely different and too fluctuating, goods that characterizes as normal goods sell for market price, goods that are characterized as differentiated can be selled above market price because the producer has a limited monopoly, some traders might be known for good service, higher quality or just be a brand that people like. They will be willing to pay a little more for this producers good than market price. Examples of this is Rolex, Apple and so on. There are competitors that create goods that work as substitues, PCs such as Asus, and other watches. But the brand is differentiated some way.

Surely some crafters will be differentiated in EoC as well if there are elements of player skill in crafting, and if some crafters offer better services, say they deliver too you, are just nice to you or has some sort of insurance. These crafters will be able to set up their own shops in their homes or a building just for their store, and people will go there to get his goods.

[Orkie]

Just make a huge board with little pieces of paper where players can put down offers and should contact each other when they agree upon a price nothing automatic just a plain board with paper.

ye, good idea. or you can announce a realtime auction for a specific time this way.

[Orkie]

It also works the other way around. For crafters that either move to a new city, or just are new to the trade, how do they know what they actually can sell their goods for? What if the only guy they can find on the streets is offering something far below actually market prices, just because he is looking to sell his goods to be able to buy new raw materials during the wrong ten minutes.

I think they had crafting guilds for that. They define the prices, people can visit them if they need a large amount of sth, crafters can join them and know for how much to sell.
There only has to be a way to punish the crafters who dare to sell stuff below the set price =)
pls no auction house ^^

[Yoube]

that truly is not efficient. Crafting guilds is basically creating an artificial monopoly. Oligopols, the few producers a market consists of, collude to uphold prices. They sell less, but earn more. Sure, crafters would benefit from this, but consumers, majority of players, would not.

Also, there would have to exist barriers for someone new entering the market and penalties for breaking the agreed upon price. This is something I doubt will be easy to enforce. So guilds setting a price above equilibrium, where the cost of making a product (plus the profit the crafter requires to even make the product, to make it worth his time) meets what consumers are willing to pay, is highly unlikely to work. Unless there are really few producers, or only one.

[master]

I'd like the majority of the trade to happen in shops and I think that trade npcs could have a few additional options than buying and selling.

For example lets say you wanted to have custom armour made. You'd go to the npc at the shop and he'd have the function to measure you and stuff. The crafter should also be able to set a questionare asking what the customer would like. [maybe a couple of versions, example: 1 could be asking what sort of fighting he'd like to do for players inexperienced in armour, another one would ask specific questions about each piece he wants to buy, like whats the maximum weight and stuff.]. other possible features could include showing customers examples of various styles they like, etc.

of course thats for crafters shops. Other types of shops should be possible. pawn shops could lend players money for collateral, general trade shops could buy any items over a certain price, general goods shops could sell a range of items for convenience.

Or in other words I'd like a fairly large amount of tools to allow pawning, bartering, training npcs in item values, etc.

Personally I see real time local auctions as a secondary function for expensive goods. If someone wants a basic sword i doubt they'll want to wait around for an auction to start when they could just go to a shop and buy a sword.

message boards I see as advertisments and would probably give out contact details. I'd like a few other ways to advertise.

Anothing thing I'd like to see is a working contract system with clauses that include what happens if a contract is broken. One the trade side of contracts, a contract might be as simple as saying that "if you import this expensive silk x will be the minimum I pay you for the silk" or it could be as complex as saying "I want five square meters of silk. If you do not bring me the silk within x amount of time you will pay me y gold"

And of course contracts should be signed by either a player magistrate or npc magistrate set by the local bank of government, which would have the ability to take what is owed streight out of the bank.

[Boobalooh]

I love reading all these ideas about trading.
However I think we should take care that the trade system doesnt become too difficult to grasp.
Alot of options is fine but I think selling and buying/ordering stuff should only be a few clicks away.

Imho if you over customize things you will drive people away.

Lets also not forget that this is supposed to be a game and not a life sim.

The life action is a good idea but I think it shouldnt be made into a game-mechanic.
An off line auction however should be. This has to do with the different time zones play in.
I for one would hate it to have to stay up till 5 am for some auction of an item that I desperatly need.
That doesnt mean that you cant /yell in the middle of town that youre selling stuff.

In short what Im trying to say is...dont over-complicate things. Keep it fun to do...please.

[ungureanu88]

dont over-complicate things. Keep it fun to do...please.

Totally agree with this. The problem of many sandbox developers today is that they strive too much to be opposite from theme-park MMO's, that they tend to over complicate things. Not all things in theme-park MMO's are bad (shocking, right ?). IMHO I think that there should be NPC stalls and of course the 1 on 1 trading between players, but most important is to HAVE the Auction Houses. I for one I'm a busy person and real life comes first. When I have roughly 2 hours (6 hours in week-ends) per day to play a MMO, I don't want to lose 30 minutes to find one specific item on a specific merchant. I'm sure that many others think that way.

Buying and selling stuff doesn't suppose to feel like work, like a challenge. It's enough struggle to fight in PvP, PvE, accept death and loss of items, grind for skills/resources, long dangerous travels between cities and let's not forget the scammers.

My view of the Auction House should be as an advertisement center. You just go there, search for your item in the localized database and when you find it just select it. There you should obtain the position on the town map (coordinates or something, but not any shiny visual marker over the merchants head) and the name of the NPC Merchant.

So please Forsaken Studio, don't over-complicate systems that should be fast and painless.

[Stone Dog]

Totally agree with this. The problem of many sandbox developers today is that they strive too much to be opposite from theme-park MMO's, that they tend to over complicate things. Not all things in theme-park MMO's are bad (shocking, right ?). IMHO I think that there should be NPC stalls and of course the 1 on 1 trading between players, but most important is to HAVE the Auction Houses. I for one I'm a busy person and real life comes first. When I have roughly 2 hours (6 hours in week-ends) per day to play a MMO, I don't want to lose 30 minutes to find one specific item on a specific merchant. I'm sure that many others think that way.

Buying and selling stuff doesn't suppose to feel like work, like a challenge. It's enough struggle to fight in PvP, PvE, accept death and loss of items, grind for skills/resources, long dangerous travels between cities and let's not forget the scammers.

My view of the Auction House should be as an advertisement center. You just go there, search for your item in the localized database and when you find it just select it. There you should obtain the position on the town map (coordinates or something, but not any shiny visual marker over the merchants head) and the name of the NPC Merchant.

So please Forsaken Studio, don't over-complicate systems that should be fast and painless.

The problem here is that everyone's definition of "complicated" can be very different. Perhaps a poor example, but a professional football player can look at their playbook and understand everything that's in there. Give it to an individual that's perhaps only watched football and never played and you'll get an entirely different response to that playbook. Take it a step further and hand it to someone who's never played football and you'll get a third reaction.

We also need to remember that while we'd like the game to best fit our real lives we have to remember that we're not the only ones playing the game. While someone such as ungureanu88 has limited time to play there could be (and definitely are) individuals out there that have considerably more time available to dedicate to playing MMO's. The point here? Who do the devs develop their game for?

To go back to things being too complicated. Perhaps at first they will be but as players work within the parameters of the game there are invariably always player-created guides to help individuals navigate those systems. The comment could be made "Well I don't want to read a guide or I don't have time to read a guide." Again there are certainly going to be individuals that fall into that category.

The difficult part is (and it's at times like this that I'm glad I'm not a dev) which play style do you create the game for? Make it too easy and those that love an in-depth system will complain that there's "no meat to be found." Make it too deep and there will be players that will publicly state that they long for the days of a more simple system.

For me, I prefer in-depth systems so that I'm not just handed things on a silver platter in such a fashion that the game really almost plays itself. With that in mind, though, I understand that's how I prefer to play and not everyone enjoys that so a local auction house that directs you to the proper vendor to buy your goods would certainly be a fair compromise I believe (although I truly dislike auction houses of any kind...just saying. )

[Yeti]

I love both in-depth and simplified systems if they make sense.

I give you and item - you give me an item for it, there we have traded. (Without tradewindows, and just giving the item by dragging the object to the other persons character)

I give an item to an person with a set of demands - a person comes up and meets those demands with items and a trade can take place and i get the item i want for my item, using a middleman/middlewoman.

I give an item to a trade guild, they will value it for me and set it up for auction for me, they will take a % of the sale of my item cause of the service they provide, at the auction a person meets the criteria for the item and gives the items needed. I can at a later point come to the trade guild and collect the items that they got for the item they sold for me and they have already taken the cut for their service.

Now if the Trade Guild gets a adverticement board and can display each object by number and then set a clock/date type for the auction then people can go there to them and interaction between the Trade Guild and the buyer can be met. The seller only needs to go to the Trade Guild to collect money. And its up to the trade guild to sell what they think will bring in profit for their time.