Combat system inspiration?

[JCatano]

Mount and Blade, but a bit faster pace.

[tbiggy]

I picked Oblivian mainly for hand to hand and spell combat, Mount and Blade is great for mounted but weapons go through other chars without hindrance so that is out for hand to hand. I have not played Darkfall or Skyrim so I have no opinion there and WOW forget it.

[edaw22]

I picked Oblivian mainly for hand to hand and spell combat, Mount and Blade is great for mounted but weapons go through other chars without hindrance so that is out for hand to hand. I have not played Darkfall or Skyrim so I have no opinion there and WOW forget it.

Just my opinion, but I personally think that Oblivions melee combat mechanics were absolutely terrible. It essentially came down to either shield up > block > shield down > hit. OR move back > enemy misses > move forward > hit. It was overly simplistic and created no tense and immersive situations like heated duels where it was the first one to make a mistake.

In mount and blade the weapons going through people is both a graphical limitation of the engine that they use along with the natural effects of lag. There isn't much you can do about that though to my knowledge.

Skyrim improved slightly upon Oblivions melee system with the addition of duel wielding and decent power attacks but the whole system still felt a little "clunky" and unresponsive to me. Plus it still didnt address the core mechanic issues nor develop upon them, it just covered them up with some "cool".

[Dave Belcher]

Just to make this clear, before people get too excited about M&B combat again (this has come up a number of times in past threads). M&B combat works well because it is a smaller scale team based combat simulation game. It is not an MMORPG. Various factors of an MMORPG make having combat like M&B very difficult, if not impossible at this time. We are aiming to make combat skill based, but mmorpg's lack the performance to enable full "twitch" based combat to be smooth and balanced.

Please bear that in mind while discussing the options in this thread, and dont expect us to be able to implement full M&B style combat

*slips his pin of reality back into its holder*

Continue!

[Morbus]

No matter where the inspiration comes from, combat needs to at least attempt to simulate reality, which is why I chose M&B over Skyrim. As Dave said, that's pretty impossible to replicate in a game of this magnitude, but as long as elements like timing and skill are emphasized over spamming attacks repeatedly, I'll be happy. A skilled player with a toothpick should be able to kill a button-berserker with a warhammer every time (as long as he doesn't make a mistake).

[edaw22]

Just to make this clear, before people get too excited about M&B combat again (this has come up a number of times in past threads). M&B combat works well because it is a smaller scale team based combat simulation game. It is not an MMORPG. Various factors of an MMORPG make having combat like M&B very difficult, if not impossible at this time. We are aiming to make combat skill based, but mmorpg's lack the performance to enable full "twitch" based combat to be smooth and balanced.

Please bear that in mind while discussing the options in this thread, and dont expect us to be able to implement full M&B style combat

*slips his pin of reality back into its holder*

Continue!

Totally fair enough. However, a simplified system or atleast attempting to capture the essence of what makes mount and blades system so good and then building that into a more viable and manageable system.

Essentially, what makes the ranged component great is the variable targeting reticule.

The mounted combat system works well due to the momentum system and directional attacks.

The melee system is much harder. It rests on the careful balancing of swing and block times, weapon variables and most importantly directional attacks/parrying. All of these things create the skill based system of awesomeness.

Taking those things and reducing their complexity and reliance on twitch accuracy would be difficult. I still think it could be done.

That being said, there's nothing to say that Mount and Blade has the ideal system. Maybe just come up with something better...

[JCatano]

Just to make this clear, before people get too excited about M&B combat again (this has come up a number of times in past threads). M&B combat works well because it is a smaller scale team based combat simulation game. It is not an MMORPG. Various factors of an MMORPG make having combat like M&B very difficult, if not impossible at this time. We are aiming to make combat skill based, but mmorpg's lack the performance to enable full "twitch" based combat to be smooth and balanced.

Please bear that in mind while discussing the options in this thread, and dont expect us to be able to implement full M&B style combat

*slips his pin of reality back into its holder*

Continue!

If that was true, then Aventurine wouldn't have been able to make Darkfall combat very, very smooth. The flow of combat, while a bit too fast (for some, not necessarily me), is something AV did incredibly well. The animations are subpar, but the system is very clean even with lots of people in the battle. Having 80 blades running the game doesn't hurt, either. Every, single one of those developers were first-time MMO-makers, so no excuses.

When I'm talking about Mount and Blade with reference to EoC, I am speaking more in terms of the pace; not the hitboxes. All of those hit boxes would drag an MMO with large scale combat to a halt. M&B is slower than I'd like, but I know if EoC combat was as fast as DF, some people would be posting mountains of complaints.

[Dave Belcher]

If that was true, then Aventurine wouldn't have been able to make Darkfall combat very, very smooth. The flow of combat, while a bit too fast (for some, not necessarily me), is something AV did incredibly well. The animations are subpar, but the system is very clean even with lots of people in the battle. Having 80 blades running the game doesn't hurt, either. Every, single one of those developers were first-time MMO-makers, so no excuses.

This isn't the same thing at all. DF combat is smooth, but its essentially just a swing and distance check. It doesn't have directional blocks and parries etc, and all the intricate detail of the M&B system. Thats what I mean by twitch, where player reactions (or twitch) play a large part in the combat system. I dont consider the mellee system in DF to be twitch (the ranged system is more so, as you need twitch skills for the aiming mechanic).

It's apples and oranges in this case, and a LOT less data needs to be sent for the DF (and other similar systems) over the M&B system. The only system that comes close is Mortal Onlines, as that has directional hits, and directional blocks, but they too had to make compromises to make the system work.

Like I have said many times, I am not ruling it out, I merely wan't you all to manage your expectations, rather than getting excited and then dissapointed when we dont release an M&B MMO heh.

[edaw22]

I personally think it wasn't JUST that Darkfall was too fast. It also had an incredibly, incredibly simplistic combat mechanic with no depth (click and move as fast as you can and avoid being hit by your apponent). Fast movement wasn't the only problem, it was also the total lack of any realistic momentum in movement, the fact that you could spin on a dime and could turn instantly, the fact that there was only one basic attack and a measly 3 or 4 special attacks and finally the fact that their once again overly simple block mechanic was all but useless.

I wont say that there aren't people who enjoy Darkfall's Melee and in fact it did kinda have its own "charm" I guess, in a weird way. What I will say is that you can hardly put Mount and Blades melee system next to Darkfall's and call a comparison.

[edaw22]

This isn't the same thing at all. DF combat is smooth, but its essentially just a swing and distance check. It doesn't have directional blocks and parries etc, and all the intricate detail of the M&B system. Thats what I mean by twitch, where player reactions (or twitch) play a large part in the combat system. I dont consider the mellee system in DF to be twitch (the ranged system is more so, as you need twitch skills for the aiming mechanic).

It's apples and oranges in this case, and a LOT less data needs to be sent for the DF (and other similar systems) over the M&B system. The only system that comes close is Mortal Onlines, as that has directional hits, and directional blocks, but they too had to make compromises to make the system work.

Like I have said many times, I am not ruling it out, I merely wan't you all to manage your expectations, rather than getting excited and then dissapointed when we dont release an M&B MMO heh.

Do you however think it would be possible to take some of the core things that makes M&B's combat system exceptional and simplify them (Less directions, a little more give on the hit detection to account for lag etc) and formulate a similar but more efficient system for EoC.

Not holding you to it, just theoretically I mean.